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What I didn't learn in business school

Selena Rezvani
Selena Rezvani is author of the new book, The Next Generation of Women Leaders: What You Need to Lead but Won't Learn in Business School. Read Selena's blog or follow her on Twitter at @NextGenWomen.

When she started her MBA program at a top-10 school last year, Ramona Dickinson had every reason to think positively about business education. Bright-eyed and optimistic, Dickinson had one central expectation of her schooling: that she'd learn the essentials of leading a modern business in a stimulating, inclusive environment.

What Dickinson encountered instead was estrangement. She found herself negotiating a largely male-dominated program whose culture had an awfully close resemblance to that of a fraternity.

Unfortunately, Dickinson's experience is not unique among women MBAs. While the vast number of women deem their MBAs as valuable once conferred, many cite a shared perception that their ideas were dismissed in school, that late nights fueled by alcohol are a required part of fitting in socially, and that the b-school environment can be rather valueless (a Rutgers study shows that MBAs are more likely to cheat than students of other disciplines).

Despite anecdotes and findings like these, my own experience in business school was largely positive. I attended a forward-thinking, consulting-oriented program for working professionals at Johns Hopkins' Carey Business School. What I brought to the table was not your usual fare: for one, I had bachelor's and master's degrees in social work and had worked on the HR side of business consulting, neither of which garners you huge respect in business. Nonetheless, over my two-year tenure I found that my ideas were embraced and my background forgiven.

So what was missing?

Female role models. With only one female professor, and next to no women in power profiled in our case studies, the outlook appeared pretty dismal for a young woman aspiring to lead. What was lacking most was a conversation -- a connection -- between women at the top and those of us coming up. I suddenly realized that while I couldn't impart how to make it to the C-suite, surely there was something I could do to move the dialogue along.

At the encouragement of my professor, Lindsay Thompson, I compiled a "dream team" of women business leaders I wanted to interview. This list included women who hadn't already been covered extensively in the media, but who had an important story to tell. These executives were known not only for their results, but the respect they earned from those around them. Among those I contacted were Dominique Schurman, CEO of Papyrus; Jamie McCourt, then-president of the LA Dodgers; and Mei Xu, founder and CEO of Chesapeake Bay Candle. I told these women about the hole I saw in the leadership development literature. I explained that together we could equip young women with tools to propel their careers forward.

To my amazement, these women and many more said "yes" to being interviewed.

By the end of 2008, I had conducted 30 interviews with a far-reaching group of women executives, each at the top of their field. I was so deeply changed by what I heard in those mentoring sessions that I resolved to turn my research into a book I could share with other women.

After all, the issues I faced as a young woman in business weren't that unique. While I was conducting interviews for the book, I was also working fulltime as a management consultant -- an underpaid one.

I knew I needed to negotiate for a better compensation package but didn't know where to start. One morning in April 2008, I did an interview with Naomi Earp, then the chair of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. As it happened, Earp was a big proponent of women negotiating more often and this topic emerged as a major theme of our interview. Although not shocking considering Earp's role and the fact that she's a lawyer by training, her words lit a fire in me.

I was so motivated up by what I heard in that interview that I made an appointment that afternoon with my boss. I followed the steps that Earp laid out. I not only had a case--complete with data that I had prepared--but I found a way to prepare emotionally. I even role-played the negotiation twice with a colleague!

I proceeded to ask my boss for a 25 percent raise that day, which was not only granted to me, but exceeded.

To this day, I am certain about one thing: these interviews were the best education I will ever receive.

There's no reason why the unwritten rules of succeeding in business need to remain a secret. It's time for b-schools to wake up to the fact that many of their learning environments aren't hospitable to women. Until women become one of the very "strategic initiatives" that business schools are famous for teaching students about, women's proportions in MBA programs will remain low.

But it's not all doom and gloom. Some post-grads are being welcomed by workplaces that truly make the development of women leaders a priority. Procter & Gamble for example, actually ties executive compensation to management's track record of promoting women upward. Xerox is doing wonderful things to connect women with role models. They've mixed the concepts of social networking with "match.com" to pair mentors and mentees in lasting relationships. The beauty? Mentors and mentees don't ever have to meet, let alone be co-located. If companies like these can make an open, honest commitment to developing women leaders, why can't MBA programs?

Women need business schools and business schools really need women. It's time for programs with real gender balance that help women rise to their potential both in the classroom and on the job.

By Selena Rezvani

 |  April 29, 2010; 2:05 PM ET |  Category:  Women in leadership Save & Share:  Send E-mail   Facebook   Twitter   Digg   Yahoo Buzz   Del.icio.us   StumbleUpon   Technorati  
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Here's what you should have learned in business school: You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate (no matter what your sex is).

Posted by: Franchises | May 4, 2010 2:26 PM

I'm seeing all too much wah-wah -- cry-cry here from both sides of the aisle.

No, I didn't go to B-school, and I can't comment on what it's like, either there or in the executive/management world. But I DID go off to engineering school at 17 -- back in the 1950's. From freshman drafting up through my PhD exams I rarely saw another woman in the same room, and it was a long time before I got parity in pay and assignments. I won't cry you any damn river either, altho I sure could write you a book.

Instead I would recommend to you all the series of taped interviews of women "Trailblazers in the Law" which I've been watching recently on C-SPAN3 for a rather different take on women succeeding in a male-dominated environment. (In the '50's about 3% of lawyers were women, BTW.) I'm sure lawyers are just as full of testosterone as MBAs, but these women (and others like them) succeeded. Ms Rezvani AND most of the posters could learn a lot from what they dealt with and how they dealt with it.

As for the whiney/angry guys posting here, their posts are very revealing -- just not in the way that they think. Almost seems like I knew them 40-50-60 years ago.

Posted by: icyone | May 3, 2010 5:15 PM

My daughter graduated with a degree in Economics from Randolph Macon Woman's College , Now Randolph College since becoming coed, which is well known for its "old girls" network. She set herself the goal of earning the transatlantic fares and extra spending money needed to spend her junior year at their campus at the University of Reading, in England and succeeded. She was hired on the strength of this success into Burlington Industries' special management training program to develop women executives, did well, and was just offered her first great step up the ladder as the deputy manager of one of their plants,when she was diagnosed with the non-Hodgkins lymphoma that took her life. There is nothing like being the father of a daughter like that to make a narrow minded male jerk reexamine his attitudes.

Posted by: johndavison | May 3, 2010 4:07 PM

Hey pgibson1,

I THINK... yes I THINK.... YOUR POST JUST PROVED THE AUTHOR'S POINT. Sure, people shouldn't be snivelling wimps, but they shouldn't be ARROGANT JERKS either. As it seems, this person didn't wimp out or back down. She identified a problem and sought a solution. Seems pretty rational and proactive to me.

Posted by: leilaash | May 3, 2010 1:45 PM

curious why you would write this piece at all.

It seem to just have "waaaaaah" all over it.

suck it up. You get to make choices in life, now.

But you're still complaining like you don't.

will there ever be a end to your blaming men for your problems, your choices, your gender?

It appears not. Here's a tissue, and just to treat you like other men treat other men, here's a virtual kick in the ass for being a snivveling whimp.

That's what men do.

but you'll never play there unless you realize it's not abuse - it's the way men do business.

Again - why was this article written?

Posted by: pgibson1 | May 3, 2010 12:13 PM

Waa Waa Waa. Always complaining. That is why women are treated the way they are. They are a pain in the neck.

Posted by: adrienne_najjar | May 3, 2010 10:29 AM

I can relate. As I man, I had the same disillusionment in my chosen profession when I got out. So PLEASE drop the sexism, welcome to the real world.

Posted by: theFieldMarshall | May 3, 2010 10:01 AM

What a strange article. What is the message here? Are there barriers to women in business, sure; but they are being rapidly dismantled. Women are rapidly moving up the corporate ladder in large numbers. When I went to B-school at the Univ of Chicago in 1980, the class had 'several' female students (sorry, my memory is not so good as to remember the percentage). Many became my friends, and went on to have phenomenal careers (like becoming the manager for marketing in China for P&G right out of B-school, based in Geneva, not too shabby!!). This article really provides no systematic proof of anything, only an apparent ego-trip for the author, who likes to see her name in print.

Posted by: lafayette89 | May 3, 2010 9:11 AM

After 40 years of promoting women to ever greater positions of responsibility and authority, America invaded a country that had not attacked us. And then only men were permitted to serve in combat.

I'm not so much into the girl power thing these days. I'm all for girl responsibility though.

Posted by: blasmaic | May 3, 2010 9:02 AM

Caveat emptor. I went back and looked at this women's credentials. Other than being a 'consultant' (without any experience, I don't know how) she hasn't done anything. No marketing experience. No finance/accounting experience. No engineering experience. No legal experience. Nada. Nothing. Nil.

She can sit back and criticize all she likes but until she's actually done something, like Martha Stewart, Carly Fiorina, et al, she's in no moral position to be throwing stones and making a living telling gullible females what they want to hear.

Posted by: Calabrese99 | May 3, 2010 6:40 AM

Cry me a river.

Half the students in my MBA program were women and they were doing pretty good. And I've watched how women in government have demanded equality and then, when they reached senior management positions, practiced open discrimination and predominantly hired women so wildly incompetent that it was embarrassing. A lot of them are succeeding because of their sex while most men of similar talents would never be considered.

Cry me a river.

Posted by: Calabrese99 | May 3, 2010 6:01 AM

Given the evidence produced from the most recent period in economic history we've come through, it would seem that, the neccessary condition for succeeding on Wall Street or the corporate world is not your maleness, so much as your criminality.

One's willingness to take what is not your, to posses as one's own the property of others, without ever having earned the right to do so, seem to be the sin qua non, for success in American business.

Isn't that what Goldman Sachs did, develop phony formulas to excuse their conversion of other peoples funds into their own?

Posted by: brng | May 3, 2010 2:20 AM

Given the recent period of economic history we've just come through, it wouldn't seem that you necessarily need to be male to succeed, but you do need to be a criminal and have no regrets about taking what is not yours, or what you have not earned.

Posted by: brng | May 3, 2010 2:04 AM

Unskilled labor is cheap because it is plentiful. Management is plentiful, so it's cheap. Business school keeps getting more expensive and it's murder by numbers out there. You don't need a degree to do business today, you do need a Gulfstream. The men are busy destroying the Gulf of Mexico ladies. Oil ain't cheap. It is plentiful.

Posted by: tossnokia | May 2, 2010 8:46 AM

Isn't business school mostly about networking, and hence the frat party atmosphere? What can you really learn in business school that you couldn't learn on your own anyway, except perhaps accounting.

Posted by: harrumph1 | April 30, 2010 10:34 PM

DAN37: You obviously don't understand the purpose of the MBA, the content of the curriculum, or the function of business management.

[You wrote: "I could make the observation that this country has TOO MANY MBAs as it is, and that their great innovation is to boost profit and quarterly earnings, thus speeding the negatives of globalization, and sucking the life out of this country's spirit of innovation, emphasizing complex financial instruments over old-fashioned ingenuity and driving our economy to its knees."]

MBAs have nothing to do with the financial issues you are railing against. Those guy/ladies are cranked out of Finance Masters. The function of a good MBA school is to provide a balanced introduction to a broad variety of business functions and skills, not to create a person highly skilled at any one of those functions. A good financial manager, for example, needs not only the MBA, but an extensive study of finance and accounting. The ad man needs both the MBA and an BS/MS in Marketing. Why not just the MS Mktg? Because it helps to know how all the pieces of a business fit together.

B-Schools that offer MBAs with focus or specialization in any of the business sub-components (i.e., finance, accounting, marketing, management, etc.) are not doing the MBA student any favors. Better that the student should take a Masters in that particular study area.

The financial objective of business managers is not quarterly earnings or profits, but optimization of share holder value...not at all the same thing...thus the expenditure of 'profits' to re-position the company to be "green", for example, in one quarter may 'hurt' a company's income statement, but may well improve the company's balance sheet and long-term share holder value. Any MBA who loses sight of share holder value as the primary goal should turn in their MBA.

Posted by: dnickell | April 30, 2010 4:40 PM

Big deal. So you have an MBA. Whoopee.

Does Bill Gates have an MBA? How about Stephen Jobs or Richard "Virgin" Branson?

All of these university grads getting pumped out every year like so many Jimmy Dean sausages.

Posted by: uncivil | April 30, 2010 4:36 PM

I'm a guy - and I just LOVE reading articles by about how I am to blame for everything that's gone wrong in this woman's life!

Where can I get MORE?????

Posted by: pgr88 | April 30, 2010 4:18 PM

THANK YOU, all MBA-holding commenters, for confirming my opinion of this degree and the people who (as a statistical generality, of course) hold it.

That opinion, BTW, is not terribly high.

Posted by: gwcross | April 30, 2010 4:13 PM

Wow! this really hit a nerve. Interesting to see such angry men out there responding to this. how impotent with rage?

The point is not that the business world needs to be a womens world, all pink and fluff. Or that business schools need to be female dominant. The idea is that the cultures in both places are so male dominant - that they are far from neutral- making it difficult sometimes for women to reach their potential when the environment is so hostile and inhospitable.

Perhaps it will help our daughters and grandaughters to excel in a more equal and balanced environment? (perhaps these men thankfully have not reproduced due to lack of women willing to spend time with them)

the idea of the boys club being the only way- is asisine.

the author sheds light on a very real issue that women face daily. thank you Ms. Rezvani!

Posted by: APKhalil | April 30, 2010 4:02 PM

I could make the observation that this country has TOO MANY MBAs as it is, and that their great innovation is to boost profit and quarterly earnings, thus speeding the negatives of globalization, and sucking the life out of this country's spirit of innovation, emphasizing complex financial instruments over old-fashioned ingenuity and driving our economy to its knees. But I won't:)

Posted by: dan37 | April 30, 2010 4:00 PM

i work in healthcare..i am male,straight...and i don't know what TV shows or novels you get your information from...but women in the workforce today are every bit as vicious..scheming and testosterone ridden as their male counterparts...testosterone in the modern day scheme of things is way overrated...laws protect the meek,dysfunctional,abused and co-dependent...i.e women.

Posted by: kiler616 | April 30, 2010 3:58 PM

I am enrolling in an Executive MBA, to my amazement there were about twice as many women than men at the presentations, so I'm curious to see how the course will develop, for sure I'm glad to see a consistent female participation, coming from the start up world and not the corporate one I was worried about feeling excluded, in addition i don't drink.....and am italian.
But i was wondering if Executive MBAs environments are different thatn traditional ones......

Posted by: biglio | April 30, 2010 3:50 PM

Only two courses away from finishing my MBA, I was feeling extremely indifferent toward my MBA degree until I signed up for Women's Entrepreneurial Leadership with Professor Kathy Korman Frey at GWU. I can honestly say that I have never worked harder in a class than I did in hers, but the lessons and confidence I gained were worth it!

Kathy is also the founder of The Hot Mommas Project. The Hot Mommas Project is dedicated to improving self-efficacy in women and girls by providing them access to female role models online. She has a whole site dedicated to creating the world's largest women's case study library.

http://www.hotmommasproject.org/home.aspx
http://hotmommasproject.wordpress.com/

Posted by: cmak | April 30, 2010 3:39 PM

"Testosterone makes you aggressive, challenging, and dismissive of ideas that don't have a hard-hitting edge to them. So, whether you're a woman or a submissive male, you will be stepped over or pushed out of the way."

True enough, but on the other hand, a loaded pistol makes an excellent equalizer. It takes no testosterone to blow your head off, if you get a little too alpha-maley.

Have a nice day.

Posted by: TechConsultant | April 30, 2010 3:37 PM

We have an anecdote about a bad experience that runs contrary to the writer's own personal experience, thus we are supposed to believe B-schools are all a bunch of misogynistic men's clubs? Oh, and some vaguely reference study questions the integrity of everyone who ever aspired to have an MBA because that relates to the subject...how? As a holder of an MBA myself I am more than a bit insulted, and more than a bit dissappointed to have wasted a few minutes of my day reading this.

Posted by: kilgore_nobiz | April 30, 2010 3:21 PM

So some dateless loser woman couldn't cut it so we blame those evil, testosterone gorged, knuckle dragging men? Maybe she should go be a school teacher or get some other job that fits her (lack of) smarts and skills. Women are highly unreliable employees because so many leave the job market when they get knocked up after a few years on the job and just when their experience reaches a level where they can actually carry their own weight and justify their years of expensive training on the job. Nobody wants some sissy, ragged out crybaby b****ch to have to work with. Sorry Romona. You are a loser. You only have yourself to blame.

Posted by: beachbum09 | April 30, 2010 3:20 PM

I am a woman with an MBA from a very good Washington area graduate school. Many female Profs, many female students, I left feeling better educated and got increased professional experience. This woman's experience is not universal. So, women, don't let this be a detterent to pursuing your dreams.

Posted by: TTCP | April 30, 2010 3:17 PM

tell her to go to nursing school if she wants more women

Posted by: lgregory2 | April 30, 2010 3:15 PM

The writer's observations are spot-on, but her conclusions are a little off: The problem is not the schools, themselves, it's the business community at-large.
The examples given (late night drinking sessions, et al) are exactly the way many business environments thrive-it's called "networking."
I'm not making a value judgment on whether it's a good or bad way to run a business, but the truth is that B schools are dominated by men because the business world is dominated by men, and a school that catered to women's needs would either be doing a poor job preparing its students for the actualities of the world of business, or spending scarce resources unevenly catering to a tiny portion of its students.
If you want to improve B schools, get more women to apply to them and enter the business community instead of just saying that B schools are doing a bad job.

Posted by: chadreese | April 30, 2010 2:54 PM

test

Posted by: tjhall1 | April 30, 2010 2:40 PM

Here's a comment women will hate, but...

Although women are "equal" to men, can do many of the same things as men, and can compete with men, women are missing one crucial ingredient that allows them to both fit in at b-school and law school, and dominate their peers. It's called testosterone. Men in their 20's are full of it and have generally mastered how to focus it for their benefit. Gone are the days (teens and college) of aimlessly chasing tail. Unfocused frat boys get bored with women striving for their MRS degree. They channel that testosterone into in-your-face professions--law and business. Women are generally not "in your face" in either profession. Testosterone makes you aggressive, challenging, and dismissive of ideas that don't have a hard-hitting edge to them. So, whether you're a woman or a submissive male, you will be stepped over or pushed out of the way. Those are just the cards biology has dealt us. If you want to go somewhere people will be nice to you, go home to mama. If you want to play with the big boys, you have to act like one! If you want to posit integrated creampuff ideas where everyone will feel good in the end, get a a master's in poodle grooming.

Posted by: cash-less | April 30, 2010 2:34 PM

I went to a top-tier MBA program where the gender ratio was nearly 4:1 male with no females on the faculty. I learned to thrive, to find ways to be heard, to network, and to support other women. These skills have served me better than most of what I learned in the classroom.

As for the woman referenced in the opening paragraphs, I would submit she didn't do her homework. Business schools come in all shapes, sizes, and attitudes and for her to choose a place that so mismatched her personality is hardly the school's fault.

The author's blanket statement that "many of their learning environments aren't hospitable to women" needs specifics to be credible. Without them, it's just whining.

BTW, according to jezebel.com, women make up nearly 30% of full-time MBA students and 40% of part-time MBA students. While not fifty-fifty, it can hardly be considered "low" as the author claims.

And if anyone, male or female, thinks they will learn how to lead at b-school, they're misguided.

Posted by: MsJS | April 30, 2010 1:47 PM

I think the men here are missing the boat. All you have to do is look at statistics to know how unequal things are!

Posted by: desikhan | April 30, 2010 1:41 PM

Thank you so much for sharing this. I've been toying with the idea of getting an MBA after five years of quick ascension in the communications consulting world. I like the idea of having a more well-rounded business perspective, but have struggled with the idea of shelling out all that money for a degree that may or may not teach me all that much. It's helpful to know what hurdles I may face and the pitfalls to watch out for if I do decide to pursue the MBA route.

Posted by: verob | April 30, 2010 1:38 PM

They may not have told you this:

Every setback is not personal
Every setback is not an excuse for seething rage
Every setback is not an excue to hold a grudge
Every setback is not an excuse to make a new lifelong enemy

Posted by: BurfordHolly | April 30, 2010 1:26 PM

Ok, I would agree to changes but only if we change the we teach our children in elementary school. We are losing generations of little boys becuase we had shifted our teaching techniques to how little girls learn, not how little boys learn. As a result, boys are falling behind and out. As the father of two little boys this concerns me deeply. So, great we can make MBA's more "hospitable" for women if we are willing to look at the whole educational process and how we are shrtchanging our boys.

Posted by: Matthew617 | April 30, 2010 1:18 PM

What they need are more hugs and discussions about how men hurt their feelings.

Posted by: englundc | April 30, 2010 12:58 PM

Ahem. That's "Procter and Gamble"...little details like corporate identity...

Posted by: n_observer | April 30, 2010 12:57 PM

I have a MBA from Pace University and have to say my experience was quite positive and different, maybe because it wasn’t a top tier school? I had many female professors who were smart, successful and who I respected and learned from. I also had some great male teachers as well who were nurturing and respectful of all their students. With that said, I learned a lot in business school, but sometimes feel I might have wasted my time and money pursuing this degree.

Posted by: sarah_NY | April 30, 2010 12:46 PM

After more than 30 years as a Columbia MBA in finance, Wall Street and international, I'd say that B-schools do very little except credential MBAs, with most not paying much attention to the substance of the courses. They mostly learn to game the 2 year programs. And the top school MBAs are so arrogant and entitled, with a dismissive attitude toward ethics, society or long term goals. Even the women grads these days are mean, scheming, greedy and power hungry, just like the almost always "conservative" (that means greedy and selfish) men that are/were their colleagues.

I despair and even laugh at the entrepreneurship prgrams that the schools provide, with little risk taking and too much EXCEL and too little passion or vision. Gimme a bottoms up bootsstrapper from the working class anyday over a prep school know it all who has never done anything that wasn't part of their strategy, parents money and contacts, and truly different. After WW2 all the CEOs were guys who worked their way up after starting out with a shovel or wrench, and knew their businesses from top to bottom. And today's women are just as scheming, despite their glass ceiling problems in the old boy world.

Posted by: enough3 | April 30, 2010 12:30 PM

As a woman who went to a top 5 B school I agree with everything stated by Rezvani. Many MBA programs are patting themselves on the back for having a women's group. A womens group is far from enough to make a difference.

Posted by: SarahEP | April 30, 2010 11:57 AM

"A Rutgers study shows that MBAs are more likely to cheat than students of other disciplines". This comes as no surprise. Witness Wall Street exec pays or the visible greed that occupies Corporate America, and you have an answer. They do not teach ethics and integrity at B Schools. As a CPA,CMA I can tell the difference. I do not yet know what value an MBA brings to the society, other than being a fixer. I guess it is the booze and night outs that makes him or her a show pony - providing that aura. Unfortunately many CPAs tend to be bean counters doing tax and historical accounting & reporting work. It is like choosing between devil and deep sea. I read about a Goldan Sachs director with a Harvad MBA past being investigated for insider trading and it hit the nail right on - that in B Schools it is all about networking and case studies- Not deep dive in to any specialty and gain in depth knowledge.

Posted by: hughes_168 | April 30, 2010 11:53 AM

A common misconception is that too many graduate with the MBA thinking the piece of paper entitles them to an automatic increase in pay and a bigger office.

I also believe with the popularity of the Executive MBA, the MBA degree has mistakenly become watered down. Personally, I was required to take 54 credit hours, and maintain a B average in order to get the degree. It was also a requirement by the Business School to have several years of work under your belt.

Most Universities have now reduced that to around 45 and allow you to complete the curriculum in 19 months.

I think there's something wrong with that!


Posted by: helloisanyoneoutthere | April 30, 2010 10:42 AM

Refreshing... Thank you for sharing what it's really like in business school and thanks to the Post for finally featuring a smart young woman in your leadership section.

Posted by: RSMBA | April 30, 2010 9:11 AM

I found that the high-end MBA programs from top-tier schools produce 26 year olds who are prepared for investment banking or consulting at Bain or McKinsey for a few years before expecting to do LBOs or become a CEO at 30. I attended a second-tier regional school part-time when I was in my 30s and while working full-time.

I think MBA programs would be of greater benefit if they required a bit more seasoning among students, say a minimum of five to seven years of experience.

My peers in the program were gov't managers, PMs for gov't contractors, some mid-career corporate types trying to re-energize a plateaued career, job changers, military veterans, women returning to the workforce after a hiatus, and a few entrepreneurs trying to add basic tools (marketing, finance, acctg) to round out their skill sets. That diversity of experience and age really improved the group projects. One student was a recently retired Naval Officer who was opening a bar and a restaurant and was learning how to apply his military experience to a P&L environment.

Did anyone in the class have credentials good enough for Wharton, Kellog, Harvard, Stanford? No, but we received fair value and have provided benefit to our employers and clients.

Posted by: mc-squared@verizon.net | April 30, 2010 7:57 AM

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